Evlogeite!
In your last reply in our “Downfall” discussion, you mentioned the concept of hell being a state of mind versus a place. I have read some excellent articles on the subject from Frs. John Romanides and George Metallinos that agree with that assessment. But today I was going through my hard drive, trying to clean things up a bit, and I came across some notes on Fr. Seraphim Rose’s “The Soul After Death.” I did not write the notes and have no idea who wrote them, but I had them saved and they touch on the subject of “place” versus “state” and a few others things. It isn’t long, and it doesn’t appear to be complete. Would you mind taking a glance at it and give me your thoughts? I know everything surrounding this subject can only be inadequately explained, yet I would like to expand what I know about the general understanding of the Church. Thanks for any insights.
In Christ,
xxx
Dear xxx
Evlogia Kyriou
QUOTE: St. John Chrysostom(os) rightly says that we need to know simply that hell really exists and how to avoid going there! So, on the one hand, we know that heaven and hell are "somewhere," not nowhere, but beyond this we must relate to these realities by faith, not by sight. See I Cor. 13:12.
Who am I to comment? Nevertheless, here is how I feel about it, so take it as you will.
St Luke 17: 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
As it says, '...the kingdom of God is within you.' Is it not then a place? We know that a dissection will not reveal it, yet to KNOW what 'within' means, wouldn't you agree requires it to be revealed or, one needs to be in that place or rather, the acquisition of the Holy Spirit - "Theosis"? And again, I think we discussed:
St. Luke 16:22-30 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Does this not indicate a place and a state? If it is a 'place' as we understand 'places', then would we not assume that the two places (hell and Abraham’s bosom) can be traversed? But that is not the case at all or the rich man wouldn't be asking for a drop of water, (besides what would an actual drop of water do? Isn’t the drop of water God’s grace or forgiveness?) which, in conjunction with what I have read from *St. John the Wonderworker and St. Isaac of Nisibis, the idea of a 'state' is comprehensible since we do indeed experience God's grace and love while in the flesh, and at the same time, the consequences of doing what displeases Him. Do we not?
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime received thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
*St. John the Wonderworker: I'm sorry but I cannot give you the actually reference but it exists in one of the Paragon blogs.
Nevertheless, St. John says that when we eventually come before Christ, Who is only Love, with unrepented sins, lacking love of God and neighbor, we experience such remorse and indignation which in turn prevents us from approaching Him.
And from St Issac:
I also maintain that those who are punished in Gehenna are scourged by the scourge of love. Nay, what is so bitter and vehement as the torment of love? I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is more poignant than any torment. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in Gehenna are deprived of the love of God.
Love is the offspring of knowledge of the truth which, as is commonly confessed, is given to all.
The power of love works in two ways. It torments sinners, even as happens here when a friend suffers from a friend.
But it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties.
Thus I say that this is the torment of Gehenna: bitter regret.
But love inebriates the souls of the sons of Heaven by its delectability.
In proportion to your humility you are given patience in your woes; and in proportion to your patience the burden of your afflictions is made lighter and you will find consolation; in proportion to your consolation, your love of God increases; and in proportion to your love, your joy in the Holy Spirit is magnified. Once men have truly become His sons, our tenderly compassionate Father does not take away their temptations from them when it is His pleasure to ‘make for them a way to escape’ (1 Cor. 10:13), but instead He gives His sons patience in their trials. All these good things are given into the hand of their patience for the perfecting of their souls.”
“In love did God bring the world into existence; in love is God going to bring it to that wondrous transformed state, and in love will the world be swallowed up in the great mystery of the one who has preformed all these things; in love will the whole course of the governance of creation be finally comprised.”
“If you practice an excellent virtue without perceiving the taste of its aid, do not marvel; for until a man becomes humble, he will not receive a reward for his labor. Recompense is given, not for labor, but for humility.”
Note: I read from Fr Seraphim Rose's book on Life after Death in the late 80's and also from Fr. Lazar Puhalo's on the subject. You may know that Metropolitan Philaret (Saint Philaret) called Fr. Lazar to a spiritual court because of the controversy between his book and that of Fr. Seraphim. Since did not respond, he was deposed. That is neither here nor there but for me, I am content with what I have read from St. John the Wonderworker and St. Isaac. And so, once more:
St. John Chrysostomos rightly says that we need to know simply that hell really exists and how to avoid going there! So, on the one hand, we know that heaven and hell are "somewhere," not nowhere, but beyond this we must relate to these realities by faith, not by sight.
Our Lord said that if our eye is single, we will be filled with light. Since Christ is the Light then what better way to make our eye single than by looking for and asking as continual as possible and advisable, for nothing, nothing at all, other than Him. And if we are fixed on Him (i.e. He is our Life) then should we not ask in lowliness to see all things as He sees them? And how does He see them? as that which He would and did give His life for. If we see all things in that Light, what concerns for heaven and hell do we have? If we are with Him, we are already in heaven, are we not? And isn't that the reason St. Paul tells us to pray ceaselessly or does he simply want us to become slaves to repetition? We don't seek and seek and seek. The objective is to find, to knock and have it opened to us, to ask and receive.
Again, please forgive my inadequacies and arrogance. I cannot help with your question as someone who is an accomplished follower of Christ but only offer my own personal view.
And from St Issac:
I also maintain that those who are punished in Gehenna are scourged by the scourge of love. Nay, what is so bitter and vehement as the torment of love? I mean that those who have become conscious that they have sinned against love suffer greater torment from this than from any fear of punishment. For the sorrow caused in the heart by sin against love is more poignant than any torment. It would be improper for a man to think that sinners in Gehenna are deprived of the love of God.
Love is the offspring of knowledge of the truth which, as is commonly confessed, is given to all.
The power of love works in two ways. It torments sinners, even as happens here when a friend suffers from a friend.
But it becomes a source of joy for those who have observed its duties.
Thus I say that this is the torment of Gehenna: bitter regret.
But love inebriates the souls of the sons of Heaven by its delectability.
In proportion to your humility you are given patience in your woes; and in proportion to your patience the burden of your afflictions is made lighter and you will find consolation; in proportion to your consolation, your love of God increases; and in proportion to your love, your joy in the Holy Spirit is magnified. Once men have truly become His sons, our tenderly compassionate Father does not take away their temptations from them when it is His pleasure to ‘make for them a way to escape’ (1 Cor. 10:13), but instead He gives His sons patience in their trials. All these good things are given into the hand of their patience for the perfecting of their souls.”
“In love did God bring the world into existence; in love is God going to bring it to that wondrous transformed state, and in love will the world be swallowed up in the great mystery of the one who has preformed all these things; in love will the whole course of the governance of creation be finally comprised.”
“If you practice an excellent virtue without perceiving the taste of its aid, do not marvel; for until a man becomes humble, he will not receive a reward for his labor. Recompense is given, not for labor, but for humility.”
Note: I read from Fr Seraphim Rose's book on Life after Death in the late 80's and also from Fr. Lazar Puhalo's on the subject. You may know that Metropolitan Philaret (Saint Philaret) called Fr. Lazar to a spiritual court because of the controversy between his book and that of Fr. Seraphim. Since did not respond, he was deposed. That is neither here nor there but for me, I am content with what I have read from St. John the Wonderworker and St. Isaac. And so, once more:
St. John Chrysostomos rightly says that we need to know simply that hell really exists and how to avoid going there! So, on the one hand, we know that heaven and hell are "somewhere," not nowhere, but beyond this we must relate to these realities by faith, not by sight.
Our Lord said that if our eye is single, we will be filled with light. Since Christ is the Light then what better way to make our eye single than by looking for and asking as continual as possible and advisable, for nothing, nothing at all, other than Him. And if we are fixed on Him (i.e. He is our Life) then should we not ask in lowliness to see all things as He sees them? And how does He see them? as that which He would and did give His life for. If we see all things in that Light, what concerns for heaven and hell do we have? If we are with Him, we are already in heaven, are we not? And isn't that the reason St. Paul tells us to pray ceaselessly or does he simply want us to become slaves to repetition? We don't seek and seek and seek. The objective is to find, to knock and have it opened to us, to ask and receive.
Again, please forgive my inadequacies and arrogance. I cannot help with your question as someone who is an accomplished follower of Christ but only offer my own personal view.
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